Underland by Robert Macfarlane is a fascinating non-fiction read in The Lazy Book Club.

Let’s chat about Blue Jay in Movie Nights!

Movie #24 Arrival

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Moonchime
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Mon Jun 20, 2022 1:39 pm

Dee wrote:
Fri Jun 10, 2022 6:34 pm


This is a very good point, and something I’ve thought about a lot, even before this film. Of course, in this context, when we know this child would have to face suffering and an untimely death, we could wonder if given the chance, would Hannah have chosen to BE or rather NOT TO BE?

I’ve often wondered about my own children. Whether they will ever get to resent us, their parents, for bringing them into this world. Especially, when we see our world becoming more and more difficult to live in, and the future looks rather bleak. Whether they will still count their blessings for being given the gift of life or would they ever consider that a burden and a curse? I know this sounds very dark, and I really hope that their future won’t be as bad as I sometimes fear, but it’s certainly a thought I can’t get out of my mind.

When it comes to the question of grandchildren…I’m really torn. Part of me would love to have them. But perhaps a bigger part of me is terrified of what future that generation might have.

And perhaps there is, in fact, a very simple answer to these thoughts and fears: the gift of life and experience of love is worth any trials and tribulations that it entails.
I think what you have written here could have been written by many a parent throughout history - there have been so many dark times and a fear that the world is reaching a terrible crisis is a recurrent one.

Of course I'm not denying that we are facing some massive challenges - if not one of the biggest - but people in dire situations feel that same tortuous angst and wonder if the world their children have entered is for the better or the worse.

There may have been a window of "comfort," for want of a better word in some countries, but I think it is natural for a parent to fear - because they never stop feeling responsible.

Looking on the bright side I think it's equally natural for youth(at least most of it) to want to embrace life - in spite of - or maybe because of - all its challenges.

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Moonchime
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Mon Jun 20, 2022 1:40 pm

Dee wrote:
Fri Jun 10, 2022 6:30 pm

I think she cannot change it, neither does she want to change it, and I think that’s what I love most about the film and its message. That she fully embraces life as it unfolds.
I think the film is more satisfying if you assume she cannot change the future but if she does not have a choice then what did Ian mean by telling her that she had made the wrong choice. It seems to me that the film makers want us to wonder about how much choice she had. You're right - mindfuck.

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Dee
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Mon Jun 20, 2022 4:08 pm

Moonchime wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 1:40 pm
Dee wrote:
Fri Jun 10, 2022 6:30 pm

I think she cannot change it, neither does she want to change it, and I think that’s what I love most about the film and its message. That she fully embraces life as it unfolds.
I think the film is more satisfying if you assume she cannot change the future but if she does not have a choice then what did Ian mean by telling her that she had made the wrong choice. It seems to me that the film makers want us to wonder about how much choice she had. You're right - mindfuck.
I think the issue is that Ian at that point simply doesn’t understand the universal language yet. He’s deeply upset about the prospect of losing Hannah, her impending suffering, the tragedy his family is facing. He needs someone to blame and he blames Louise.

Louise couldn’t choose differently, she already knew her daughter. Her choice is not to fight what she knows it’s happening anyway. And I think most mothers put their children first - so there’s that too.


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Moonchime
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Thu Jun 30, 2022 8:46 am

Dee wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 4:08 pm




Louise couldn’t choose differently, she already knew her daughter. Her choice is not to fight what she knows it’s happening anyway. And I think most mothers put their children first - so there’s that too.

Yes I take your point about Ian blaming Louise so he, if no-one else, thinks she had a choice. I wonder about the universal language - it's a gift of understanding Louise was lucky enought to have, otherwise you just have faith.

I don't doubt mothers putting their children first what I question is whether or not her decision was putting her child first. The glib answer is that she was - or at least believed she was which is what matters.
I feel like I'm on an hamster wheel. :57:

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Lori
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Tue Jul 05, 2022 11:08 am

I am overwhelmed by the questions of this movie and am grateful for you all putting into words and dissecting the nuance it presents. Why weren't you sitting next to me in class so I could copy your work? Hm? I've been immersed in your perceptions and basked alongside you in the essence and message. Beautiful circular speech. There were some holes for me with the inference of speech, etc., but there were some incredibly wonderful moments and lessons. The journey of an ill child and weighing this unfolding - such hard questions. It was done with an airbrush hand and heart. I loved that about the movie. There was a calm thread running through it steeped in humanity. Amy Adams is to be commended for her deep performance.

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Dee
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Sun Jun 11, 2023 2:33 am

I keep returning to this film in my thoughts so many times. I’ve recently recommended it to someone who was talking to me about a sense of circular time… and she read the short story first, before watching the film, ‘Story of Your Life’ by Ted Chiang.

So that II could talk to her about it, I have now read the short story too, and found it interesting in its similarities and differences. The story is about 60 pages, well worth a read, if you want to immerse yourself more in this Heptapod world, and Louise’s mind.

Spoilers ahead, so only read on if you don’t intend to read the source material, or you don’t mind the spoilers. (Knowing the future, ha!)

I would like to say that all the changes in the film are for the better, except I wonder why they changed Hannah’s cause of death. In the short story she dies in a climbing accident when 25. Knowing this for a mother ahead of time would be a heavy burden enough, I’d have thought. The terminal cancer starting in childhood was perhaps more hard-hitting, but not a necessary change, I don’t think. I guess it provided a reason for Louise to confess to Ian that she knew this would happen. In the short story the parents split up too, but we don’t know why, and it’s not even hinted at, that it’s because of Louise’s “choice”. In fact it’s more likely that he leaves her for another woman as both Louise and Gary (different name in the short story) recouple, and Gary’s new partner is always referred to as “whatshername”.
We do have confirmation though that Gary never learns the language of the Heptapods. We never learn whether Gary ever finds out that Louise knew what would happen to Hannah. (By the way, in the short story she doesn’t have a name, and the story is written to her.)

In the short story the heptapods leave without revealing their purpose on Earth. I liked that there was some feasible explanation of that in the movie.

I would say the short story is very interesting, but leaves a lot of questions unanswered and doesn’t seem to dive deep enough into some things we want to know more about. The movie has done a much better job of that.

But there are some great passages that are very much in line with some of our conversation above regarding free choice and what it is like going through life when you already know what is going to happen.

Such as Hannah protesting when Louise changes things in the story of Goldilocks. (Eg, instead of porridge, papa bear’s bowl is full of Brussels sprouts)

’You have to read it the right way! […]That’s not how the story goes.’
‘Well if you already know how the story goes, why do you need me to read it to you?’
‘Cause I wanna hear it!’


Here is the moment when Louise makes her “choice”:

Working with the Heptapods changed my life. I met your father and learned Heptapod B, both of which make it possible for me to know you now, here on the patio in the moonlight. Eventually, many years from now, I will be without your father, and without you. All I will have left from this moment is the heptapod language. So I pay close attention, and note every detail.
From the beginning, I knew my destination, and I chose my route accordingly. But am I working toward an extreme of joy, or of pain? Will I achieve a minimum, or a maximum?
These questions are in my mind, when your father asks me, ‘Do you want to make a baby?’ And I smile and answer, ‘Yes’, and I unwrap his arms from around me, and we hold hands as we walk inside to make love, to make you.


This is the end of the short story. So yes, from this conclusion, it feels Louise didn’t really feel she had a choice, or she did, and chose to make the one she already knew she did. So is that still a real choice? In fact, the writer of the short story argues that ‘free will’ is only an important concept to us, when we don’t know the future and we want to feel and practice the power of shaping it. If you already know the future, the concept of ‘free will’ becomes irrelevant, but not at all as a negative.

Freedom isn’t an illusion, it’s perfectly real in the context of sequential consciousness. Within the context of simultaneous consciousness, freedom is not meaningful, but neither is coercion; it’s simply a different context, no more or less valid than the other. It’s like that famous optical illusion, the drawing of either an elegant young woman, face turned away from the viewer, or a wart-nosed crone, chin tucked down on her chest. There is no ‘correct’ interpretation; both are equally valid. But you can’t see both at the same time.
Similarly, knowledge of the future was incompatible with free will. What made it possible for me to exercise freedom of choice also made it impossible for me to know the future. Conversely, now that I know the future, I would never act contrary to that future, including telling others what I know: those who know the future don’t talk about it.


So there is a simple explanation why Louise wouldn’t tell the father that their future baby together will die very young. Though I’d like to think it’s much more complex than that, we certainly have made it so in our conversations above. But perhaps it’s just that simple.

Finally, one of my favourite passages from the short story was the explanation of how Louise experiences her life:

Before I learned how to think in Heptapod B, my memories grew like a column of cigarette ash, laid down by the infinitesimal sliver of combustion that was my consciousness, marking the sequential present. After I learned Heptapod B, new memories fell into place, like a gigantic blocks, each one measuring years in duration, and though they didn’t arrive in order all or land contiguously, they soon composed the period of five decades. It is the period during which I know Heptapod B well enough to think in it, starting during my interviews with Flapper and Raspberry and ending with my death.
Usually, Heptapod B affects just my memory: my consciousness crawls along as it did before, a glowing sliver, crawling forward in time, the difference being that the ash of memories lies ahead as well, as behind: there is a no real combustion. But occasionally I have glimpses when Heptapod B truly reigns, and I experience past and future all at once; my consciousness becomes a half-century long ember burning outside time. I perceive - during those glimpses - that entire epoch as a simultaneity. It’s a period, encompassing the rest of my life, and the entirety of yours.


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